Curse

Fay Vert · Jan 01, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I think what I see is people suggesting changes to skills to make the skills worth using, such is the bad state that rangers in PVE are in these days. Whole lines are pointless, whole playstyles that were once favoured are now either futile because the game has moved away, or have been omgwtfpvp nerfed. Trapping was killed by the massive loot nerf lie. Pets were killed by the (much needed) pet controls (with accompanying pet lobotomy).

Kunder · Jan 01, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Edge of Extinction: Remove the 90% clause.

Reason: This skill was nerfed specifically for PvP before we could split skills. This is exactly the kind of skill that works well for PvE but not for PvP. As with buffing all spirits in beast mastery its also an indirect buff to Pet builds that doesn't require you to overhaul entire gameplay mechanics or pet AI.

Toxicity: Poisoned or Diseased creatures within range also take 1..5..7 damage per condition per second.

Reason: Spreading conditions is supposed to be the ranger's job, but even when you do it the actual effects are lackluster. Since it will apply to all conditions as long as disease or poison is present it will scale with other party members that can blind bot or cause mass burning.

Lacerate: Add another clause. Enemies in range that suffer or recover from a condition are interrupted.

Reason: Panic mesmers have managed to subvert the traditional damage-only PvE mindset, if this the amount of interruption that is needed to do that then so be it.

All nature rituals in general of course should get the Ritualist treatment of .75s cast time and much lowered recharge.

As for straight out AoE damage, the proposed change to barrage allowing preparations should make rangers at least decent on their own and be near top-tier with splinter weapon. It may in fact leave them overpowered (by this I mean more powerful even then other nukers, since of course everything in PvE is already overpowered).

Szymaa · Jan 02, 2011, 03:07 AM // 03:07

I keep coming back to the idea of not having Barrage remove preparations, but I just don't see Anet going through with it.

Barrage + Ignite Arrows + Splinter Weap = ZOMG NUMBERZZZZ!

Kunder · Jan 02, 2011, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Ignite arrows isn't really all that powerful on its own, since its armor-respecting damage (and fire at that, one of the most heavily resisted ones). You can play with Incendiary Arrows + Ignite Arrows to mimic what a barrage would feel like with preparations. Its really pretty close to what you see with a standard Hundred Blades warrior build, and Anet seems ok with the balance of that. It does have some fairly nice synergy with EBSoH though. Would be cool to see the return of B/P groups.

reaper with no name · Jan 02, 2011, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

I won't say that there aren't some problems with the Ranger profession that need to be fixed, but most of what I'm seeing is this thread is people asking for certain skills to be changed in a way to fit a specific build that the person wants to run, not changes to improve the profession overall.

There's a term for what comes from non-specific buffs to a class.

They're called dartboard buffs. They generally either don't help a profession or lead it to the ridiculously overpowered club. Either way, it's the bad kind of power creep (not to say there's necessarily a good kind, but some types are worse than others).

The best way to fix the ranger is to decide what useful job(s) we want it to perform, and formulate suggestions designed to make them the best at it.

Xiaquin · Jan 02, 2011, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Szymaa

I keep coming back to the idea of not having Barrage remove preparations, but I just don't see Anet going through with it.

Barrage + Ignite Arrows + Splinter Weap = ZOMG NUMBERZZZZ!

Barrage is fine; it doesn't need to get better, just about everything else does.

NerfHerder · Jan 02, 2011, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Favorable Winds-5e 2c 30rc- Nature Ritual. Create a level 1...8...10 spirit. For non-spirit allies within its range, arrows move twice as fast and strike for +0...12...15 damage. This spirit dies after 30...126...150 seconds.

Barrage-5e 1/4c 1rc-Elite Bow Attack. All your preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 6 foes nearby your target. These arrows strike for +7...25...30 damage if they hit. Maximum 7 foes.

Incendiary Arrows-5e 1/4c 4rc-Elite Bow Attack. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 4 foes near your target. Those foes are set on fire for 1...3...3 second[s].

Ignite Arrows-5e 1c 12rc-Preparation. For 36 seconds, your arrows explode on contact, dealing 5...21...26 fire damage to target and all nearby foes.

I borrowed from some ideas I liked in this thread. The idea is to give Rangers more reliable AoE damage. With the state of powercreep in GW I dont think any of these skill changes would be OP. All preperations should have a reduced casting time and last longer. The DPS they provide is undermined by constant recasting. Likewise Nature Rituals should get the Rt spirits buff to casting time and recharge, and effect alllies or foes depending on the mechanic.

I also suggest adding damage to condition causing skills. Condition stacking would be much more preferable, if they provided a small amount of spike damage when applied. For instance,

Hunter's Shot-5e 1c 10rc-Bow Attack. Deals +5...17...20 damage. If this attack hits, your target bleeds for 3...21...25 seconds.

I'm not saying Rangers are underpowered or useless. As they stand now, a good Ranger can deal a decent amount of damage and still has a variety of roles to play. However, when you compare them to other classes, its easy to see how PvP nerfs overflowed into PvE and the powercreep left them behind. If i had a magic wand I would wipe out powercreep and set everyone on a more even playing field. The reality is that would take a huge amount of rebalancing for all classes and monsters. At this stage of the game the only way I see fighting powercreep is with more powercreep.

Amy Awien · Jan 02, 2011, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The best way to fix the ranger is to decide what useful job(s) we want it to perform, and formulate suggestions designed to make them the best at it.

Which are? Developers abandonned that road a long time ago and because of their efforts there's just no demand for what rangers do. One of the two jobs that matter in PvE is making red bars go down, fast, and preferable many of them at once. The other job in PvE is keeping red bars up.

Rangers don't fill those as effective as others, therefore there's no need to bring them in a team.

Keep in mind, even when rangers played their part in PvE it was to make multiple red bars go down fast.

Fay Vert · Jan 02, 2011, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Szymaa

I keep coming back to the idea of not having Barrage remove preparations, but I just don't see Anet going through with it.

I don't see ANet doing anything with rangers at all, they are the one profession that doesn't get looked at even when there is a major all-profession skill rebalance. I think ANet forgets the profession even exists some times, and when they do remember then they think it's fine. Willing to bet they don't read this forum. So, we can all speculate skill buffs, but it is for our own ammusement only, none of it will ever happen.

reaper with no name · Jan 02, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Which are? Developers abandonned that road a long time ago and because of their efforts there's just no demand for what rangers do. One of the two jobs that matter in PvE is making red bars go down, fast, and preferable many of them at once. The other job in PvE is keeping red bars up.

Rangers don't fill those as effective as others, therefore there's no need to bring them in a team.

Keep in mind, even when rangers played their part in PvE it was to make multiple red bars go down fast.

All successful infantry tactics end with "and then we shoot them". Does that mean all infantry tactics are the same?

There are many ways to reach what may seem to be the same conclusion.

Xiaquin · Jan 02, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

/snip

Quite a few attack skills, even with a damage buff, are just painful to even think of bringing because of long recharges (Hunter's, Melandru's, Broad Head, etc.) Also NRs should match binding rituals for activation speed, but ideally I'd like a global 2 second activation on all spirits.

As for the red bar nature of PvE, that is the sad fact. It seems that only a few professions are thought to be needed in a wasteland of obsolete roles and mechanics. Pure damage and back line power has destroyed all but niche roles, and ranger got the raw end of that deal.

Amy Awien · Jan 02, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

All successful infantry tactics end with "and then we shoot them".

But if the guns are to weak ...

The skills are your guns, tactics are concerned with how they are are applied, which is another discussion.

reaper with no name · Jan 03, 2011, 05:22 AM // 05:22

The point I was trying to make was that even though PvE is dominated by the two big D's of damage and defense, there are still many ways to go about it, each with their own advantages, disadvantages, and conditions.

Let's take defense for example. We've got prot, shutdown, healing, diversionary meatshields, etc. But many of these can be divided into more categories, such as:

prot = damage reduction (Shield of Absorption), damage capping (Protective Spirit), damage prevention (Aegis)
shutdown = interrupts, blindness, weakness, skill disabling (Power Block)
diversionary meatshields = EVAS, minions, spirits, pets

And so on. But these can be yet subdivided depending on their targets (single target, AoE, and everything in between), benefits, drawbacks, and conditions.

Consider the following:

SoS and SoGM are both spirit-based builds. Each of them deal damage and serve as defense by using spirits to absorb damage instead of party members. However, that does not mean that one build is "better" than the other.

A SoGM build is theoretically capable of more damage than an SoS build (proof here).

Does that mean that SoS is bad and should fall out of the meta? No, because SoGM has a huge weakness. It can only outdamage SoS when one fills their whole bar with spirits, painful bond, and energy management. There is no room on a SoGM bar for such useful skills as Armor of Unfeeling (tougher spirits can absorb more damage), Splinter Weapon, or GDW.

So, therefore, both SoGM and SoS can exist in the meta without stepping on each other's toes. SoGM can provide more raw firepower, but SoS provides better diversionary meatshields and more skill slots for other forms of damage or defense.

Now let's consider minions. Like spirits, they are diversionary meatshields. We will focus on two categories: melee minions and Bone Fiends (which are, of course, ranged attackers). Both of them do not require summon spirits to move around, and can trigger physical synergies. However, they also require a steady supply of corpses, and if their master dies things go very bad.

Unlike spirits, melee minions can only attack their foes up close. This means that they lose some damage getting to their targets. Melee minions also generally do not deal as much damage as spirits do. However, as melee attackers, they put themselves into the thick of the fight, increasing the likelihood that they will be targets (as diversionary meatshields, this is a good thing).

Bone Fiends, thanks to their relative lack of movement during a fight (they'll stay in EBSoH) and their faster attack speed, are theoretically capable of outdoing melee minions and spirits in damage (proof of the latter here). However, they are not as durable as spirits or melee minions.

So, both bone fiends and the various melee minions can exist in the meta without getting in each other's way (sometimes even in the same build), and they can furthermore coexist with spirits. Despite the fact that all these things I just mentioned are all ultimately diversionary meatshields that deal and absorb damage, they are each different enough in their pros and cons that no one has to be left out in the cold.

To be gratuitous, let's consider a few subdivisions of the "melee physical" way of dealing damage.

When there is only one target in front of you that must die, no other melee build will kill it faster than an assassin with daggers. However, despite the AoE of Death Blossom, it's AoE power is still inferior to some other methods of melee, such as...

...Hundred Blades. Under the right conditions, with the right teambuild and enough enemies, nothing in the game can do more damage to more targets than a warrior with Hundred Blades and Whirlwind Attack. Unfortunately, the single target power of such a build is severely lacking.

But what if you are only sometimes facing multiple opponents? Well, that's what scythes are for. A scythe user's single target power is superior to a Hundred Blades Warrior's, but inferior to a Dagger Assassin's. Meanwhile, it can also do more damage to the two enemies adjacent to the primary target than a Dagger Assassin, but when there are more enemies than that, Hundred Blades becomes the desired method.

So, right there we have three styles of melee that can each coexist because they specialize in different forms of damage-dealing. And this doesn't even consider additional dimensions that may exist (SY-based defense, Hammer-based shutdown), or spaces between the three methods of melee discussed here (say, a build between scythes and daggers).

The message to take away from this is that even within the confines of the two D's of GW (damage and defense), there is still ample wiggle room for the ranger to fit. All it needs are unreplicable methods of performing one or both of the two D's effectively with unique pros, cons, and conditions to them, because that's what ultimately separates the good from the bad in this game.

Amy Awien · Jan 03, 2011, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Unreplicable methods for D/D aren't the issue, they have to be effective enough - and in a wide range of situations - to become a viable alternative compared to other alternatives.

The ranger ways of shut down are obsolete, we have no weakness, our blind is not practical and there's nothing we can interrupt that a mesmer won't do better. Cripple and other conditions make little difference in PvE, while their application style does not mesh with H&H-ing and our application of daze is too unreliable to make it worthwhile. Changes to those should be a part of the revamping.

Protection and healing were never in our skillset, red bar down is mediocre and only, thoug barely, usefull because of it's ranged nature. More useable turrets with less gimmicky bars might be a step forward. Turrets should be strengthened, not nurfed as they have been in the past.

Pets could make good damage soaks, if mob-ai wasn't programmed to ignore them - quite opposite to their obsessive attacking of spirits. And given how anything usefull for R/- got hit in the past I wouldn't be surprised if pets will be hit after the 7 hero update (if that one ever arrives).

Xiaquin · Jan 03, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

/snip

I wish I could *Like* this post, it hits on everything I feel.

The senseless lack of PvP-splits for ranger doesn't make sense to me, and never less than after the ritualist was given its own personal, mobile turret army. I've heard that "Unless a PvP split is absolutely necessary, it won't be done", but I fail to see the reasoning behind the state of this PvE profession.

This is why I've suggested more control improvements and not just damage. Unfortunately, PvE skills, in the infinite wisdom that spawned them, defeat these efforts. I think that makes re-evaluating nature rituals and traps all the more critical, in addition to damage or DPS.

reaper with no name · Jan 03, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Unreplicable methods for D/D aren't the issue, they have to be effective enough - and in a wide range of situations - to become a viable alternative compared to other alternatives.

The ranger ways of shut down are obsolete, we have no weakness, our blind is not practical and there's nothing we can interrupt that a mesmer won't do better. Cripple and other conditions make little difference in PvE, while their application style does not mesh with H&H-ing and our application of daze is too unreliable to make it worthwhile. Changes to those should be a part of the revamping.

Protection and healing were never in our skillset, red bar down is mediocre and only, thoug barely, usefull because of it's ranged nature. More useable turrets with less gimmicky bars might be a step forward. Turrets should be strengthened, not nurfed as they have been in the past.

Pets could make good damage soaks, if mob-ai wasn't programmed to ignore them - quite opposite to their obsessive attacking of spirits. And given how anything usefull for R/- got hit in the past I wouldn't be surprised if pets will be hit after the 7 hero update (if that one ever arrives).

I agree. I should have bolded the word "effectively" in the last sentence of my last post (because that is what stands in the ranger's way).

Hey, rangers used to be healers, once upon a time (Healing Spring)! Come to think of it, that skill could have potential, if they made it more like a ward and buffed it (stay close to the trap, get healed; the benefits being the ability to heal multiple people at once, the cost being that you have to bunch up).

Everything you pointed out there is a good starting point. So let's think of ways to address those concerns.

Kunder · Jan 16, 2011, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Random revelation that came to me today:

Pets need to be party members. Period. They already have player controls and they take up enough skill slots to use that there is no reason they aren't getting healed off Heal Party and can't be buffed by Orders.

Xiaquin · Jan 16, 2011, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Random revelation that came to me today:

Pets need to be party members. Period. They already have player controls and they take up enough skill slots to use that there is no reason they aren't getting healed off Heal Party and can't be buffed by Orders.

Parties are limited space, that would mean losing a hero/hench or human. I would never replace one with a pet.

Fay Vert · Jan 16, 2011, 03:03 AM // 03:03

I think he was meaning count as for the benefit of those skills, but otherwise no change.

Kunder · Jan 16, 2011, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I think he was meaning count as for the benefit of those skills, but otherwise no change.

Indeed .